tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7740068143646811200.post7714256543793536441..comments2023-03-19T08:50:44.025-07:00Comments on Dominus Illuminatio Mea: Human Sexuality and the Church: A Time for Prayer, Study, and ReflectionRob Scothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04072843841380642362noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7740068143646811200.post-26973998954412153682013-08-01T07:39:52.720-07:002013-08-01T07:39:52.720-07:00Thanks, Sean. I appreciate your honesty and openn...Thanks, Sean. I appreciate your honesty and openness, and I'm always encouraged to find others in TEC who are still sincerely interested in "continuing to listen" (a phrase I remember being very much in vogue just a few years back). I think it's so important, both for our witness and for the health and future of the Church. <br /><br />I share your concern about the seeming dearth of theological leadership in our church (I hope it's not as bad as it sometimes seems; sensational news gets the headlines), and I agree that the tendency of some to want to jettison or ignore the most basic articles of the faith is much more worrying in the long run than our disagreements over human sexuality. It continues to baffle me how those way out in left field (some of them aren't even in the ballpark anymore) continue to remain in TEC; regardless of the political statements that come out of General Convention, or the latest embarrassment to come from a bishop's pulpit, the Book of Common Prayer remains as thoroughly Trinitarian and orthodox as anything out there. And it's the BCP, more than anything else, that drives and shapes the life of our church, and from which we derive our doctrine and discipline. It's the BCP that keeps me in this church, and gives me hope for our future. Despite some evidence to the contrary, I still believe 'lex orandi, lex credendi'. <br /><br />I've also begun to hope that such antipathy towards tradition might to some degree be chalked up to being a baby boomer thing. Hopefully it will pass before it does too much damage. It does seem to me that there are no small number of us younger folks who very much want to see the church continue to hold fast to Christ as the Head. Affirming the catholic faith helps us to do that. Taking an unmitigated 'do what you feel' or 'let's see where this path takes us' approach to theology doesn't.Rob Scothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04072843841380642362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7740068143646811200.post-56196809054001101492013-07-27T08:44:04.356-07:002013-07-27T08:44:04.356-07:00Great post! I wish everybody in TEC had your kind ...Great post! I wish everybody in TEC had your kind of reasoning when approaching controversial issues. The vast majorities on both sides made up their minds long ago and there is no real interest in having an honest discussion. For myself, I'm generally quite supportive of the inclusion of LGBT individuals into the life of the church. That being said, I still am very open to listening to the opinions/conclusions of others when it comes to this issue. I will also readily admit that the idea of having a gay marriage in my parish is one that makes me feel a little uncomfortable. I would also like to say that I agree that this issue is taking up way too much of the TECs time and resources. Frankly, I'm much more concerned with the leadership's drift toward a unitarian universalism and a hostility to the historic creeds. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15179252721516298566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7740068143646811200.post-80642277155191598172013-06-26T22:54:58.839-07:002013-06-26T22:54:58.839-07:00Sorry for the late response; I've been offline...Sorry for the late response; I've been offline for a few days. <br /><br />I just finished Justin Lee's book 'Torn'. It was quite a compelling read. I'm glad Justin had the courage, compassion, and skill to write it, because I think it's really important that people (especially those in the Church who oppose same-sex marriage) hear his story. At the very least, I don't see how any Christian who takes the time to listen to a story like his could not then approach the issues with a greater sense of compassion and understanding. And both those qualities are so needed now, when many in the Church continue to see this through the lens of cultural warfare (i.e. the 'take back our country for God' approach). <br /><br />I found myself agreeing with and empathizing with Justin throughout the book - I think it's pretty hard not to. At this point, I can't say I agree entirely with his biblical interpretation, but it's a reasonable interpretation nonetheless. And in any event, that was just two chapters of the book, which is a memoir, not a theological or exegetical treatise. One of the things that stood out to me was the (at least as Justin chronicles it) futility of the various 'ex-gay ministries' and the damage done by the same. Pretty timely reading, given the recent public apology from Exodus International president Alan Chambers, and the closing of that organization. Rob Scothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04072843841380642362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7740068143646811200.post-17462424865040680392013-06-23T17:41:30.891-07:002013-06-23T17:41:30.891-07:00Clay - how's it going thus far?Clay - how's it going thus far?Charles Eversonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14975086291432962448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7740068143646811200.post-45892932735582028432013-06-03T14:09:20.155-07:002013-06-03T14:09:20.155-07:00I see that you are trying to figure out what you s...I see that you are trying to figure out what you see as the truth. Don't ignore your feelings, either for or against LGBT people. Examine them and pay attention. God works through feelings too, not just dusty books. <br /><br />I get pretty passionate about this because I was the kid who grew up knowing he was gay but never finding a place where that was acceptable. I feel called to make the church a welcoming place for all gay people and hope that we can reduce the suicide rate among LGBT youth. I am speaking as a gay person when I say you are not at a place to help do that. Ignoring gay people is not the same as welcoming us. (Justin Lee has a great blog post today about that very thing. How's that for God's hand at work?)<br /><br /><a href="http://gcnjustin.tumblr.com/post/52073814742/invisible" rel="nofollow">Invisible</a>Martyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16025003506772212559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7740068143646811200.post-57596618062706673582013-06-03T10:20:02.051-07:002013-06-03T10:20:02.051-07:00Hi Marty,
Thanks for the conversation, and I'...Hi Marty, <br /><br />Thanks for the conversation, and I'm happy to hear that you've found a home in the Episcopal Church.<br /><br />I think I have been fairly reflective about my own sexuality, though not to the extent, I'm sure, of most LGBT people. I agree that the phrase 'feel themselves genetically inclined' is awkward. All I was meaning to say is that who we are as individuals, including our feelings and desires, is influenced by human genetics. I'm no geneticist, for sure, but I don't think that's a controversial stance.<br /><br />You're right that feelings are a vital factor in this conversation, but I can't dismiss the theological and Scriptural aspects as secondary. Honestly, I don't trust my own feelings to lead me all the way home. I'm aware of the brokenness in my own self, and the disordered and sinful feelings that I struggle with on any given day. By actively engaging (rather than just blindly accepting) Scripture and tradition, I find myself part of a community that helps me discern truth more accurately than I could in isolation. I should clarify that I'm not 'looking for theological reasons to oppose' LGBT ordinations and blessings. I'm already fairly familiar with that side of the debate; if anything, the opposite is true. Frankly, it would be great for me to be able to fully affirm LGBT persons in the Church; it would certainly make my life a lot easier. But I've got to be able to do that in good conscience, which compels me to go off of more than just my personal feelings. In truth though, this is not the spirit in which I'm beginning this period of discernment, i.e. looking for theological ammunition to bolster my already decided position. Rather, I hope to approach these issues with a truly open mind and heart (God grant me grace) and prayerfully arrive at the place where God would have me be.<br /><br />Thanks again for your insights, and for referring me to the Gay Christian Network. <br /> Rob Scothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04072843841380642362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7740068143646811200.post-67401255397616989182013-06-03T09:05:50.270-07:002013-06-03T09:05:50.270-07:00Hi, I'm an Episcopalian, and I'm gay. I gr...Hi, I'm an Episcopalian, and I'm gay. I grew up in a much more conservative denomination but joined my current church because it was a place I could be welcomed as a full member of the church, where I didn't have to lie about who I was.<br /><br />I'm glad you are reading Torn by Justin Lee. His book, more than any other, looks at the human aspect of being gay and Christian. My guess is that you have thought very little about your own sexuality. People who have thought about sexuality don't use phrases like "feel themselves genetically inclined to same-sex attraction." It's not that you are being offensive--it's just that the phrase doesn't make sense. No one feels "genetically inclined" to be anything. We just feel. Torn will give you insight into sexuality and probably get you to ponder your own.<br /><br />Feeling, more than the three-legged stool or any theological framework, is what we're talking about here. You said the ordination of women has never bothered you (despite the arguments against it). The ordination of LGBT people and blessing of same-sex unions probably does bother you, which is why you are conflicted about these things in the church (and why you are looking for theological reasons to oppose them). If it didn't bother you, you wouldn't question it. It's important to ask yourself why this bothers you. <br /><br />If you really want to get to know LGBT Christians and find out what we're really about, I would suggest joining the Gay Christian Network (gaychristian.net). It's a good place to ask questions...we welcome them! If you are able, you should also attend the conference, which will be in Chicago in January 2014--more information is available on the website.)<br /><br />I'll leave you with this--every position I've seen that is against full inclusion in the church has always been about justifying someone's fears about me. I have never seen an argument against same sex blessing or gay ordination that was about what is good for me.Martyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16025003506772212559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7740068143646811200.post-3665225389561890182013-06-03T07:03:11.114-07:002013-06-03T07:03:11.114-07:00Looks interesting, thanks so much!Looks interesting, thanks so much!Rob Scothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04072843841380642362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7740068143646811200.post-50003074627554807782013-06-03T06:28:40.123-07:002013-06-03T06:28:40.123-07:00Since you specifically evoke the issue of whether ...Since you specifically evoke the issue of whether this question is analogous to women's ordination and slavery, you might be interested to look over the book "Slaves, Women & Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermeneutics of Cultural Analysis" by William Webb. The summary on Amazon describes the book well, and the reviews give more info (tho the latter of course at times reflect the contentiousness you reference above.) Bethhttps://twitter.com/beth_maynoreply@blogger.com